coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

maherkaldas

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 02:53 AM

From abahoor:Beautifully said...i fully agree....and yes, it been forever. With that being said, is it good considering what we are seeing here today in churches outside Egypt? I mean is that what is really happening right now?

Lack of leadership within Churches outside Egypt is a lack of organization. Also, the trend of following without understanding WHY??? is a disaster. I have no problem following anyone as long I see reasons that justify that direction.

It is not a secret that i learned for few years from Mlm. Ibrahim ayad. But, even him when he teaches he explains everything first, reads text, correct pronunciation and lastly teaches hymns.

I hope that the people who are eager to copy him in everthing including how he sounds...and learn from him learn all he teaches not only the hymns ...he does a lot of research too.

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abahoor

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 03:07 AM

Thank you.....this is exactly what i am trying to get to:

I have no problem following anyone as long I see reasons that justify that direction.

And that's all what I am trying to do...."see reasons that justify"

So now tell me, shouldn't i have the right to see and ask about Albair's conclusion?!(with all due respect to his and your word for it)

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 496

maherkaldas

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 03:12 AM

From abahoor:Thank you.....this is exactly what i am trying to get to:

I have no problem following anyone as long I see reasons that justify that direction.

And that's all what I am trying to do...."see reasons that justify"

So now tell me, shouldn't i have the right to see and ask about Albair's conclusion?!(with all due respect to his and your word for it)

I am sure if you ask. he will answer.

Joined: Dec 25, 2002 | Posts: 272
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Remnkemi

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 04:16 AM

From abahoor:
And that's all what I am trying to do...."see reasons that justify"

Just keep an open mind. The reason to justify the change may not be what you're looking for. If the reason is simply, "Because all the bishops reviewed the research and that is what they want", would that be acceptable? If you have an open mind, that might be all you need. If not, there may never be a good enough reason to justify.

George

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abahoor

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 04:24 AM

From Remnkemi:From abahoor:
And that's all what I am trying to do...."see reasons that justify"

Just keep an open mind. The reason to justify the change may not be what you're looking for. If the reason is simply, "Because all the bishops reviewed the research and that is what they want", would that be acceptable? If you have an open mind, that might be all you need. If not, there may never be a good enough reason to justify.

George
Well that's good enough for me.....just accepting the concept of the general funeral should show that. but something like the psalm, i don't think there was much talk about it where "all the bishops reviewed the research and that is what they want"

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 496

Remnkemi

posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 06:45 AM

Hence, why I said "IF the reason is..." It could be a completely different reason.

And unless we were all there, how do you know the bishops didn't research and come to the conclusion that this is what they want? IF that is the reason, would that be a good enough reason? (You don't have to answer that. Keep it to yourself and keep an open mind).
George

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ophadeece

posted on Apr 13, 2010 - 05:10 PM

<C anecty
I am sorry I haven't been able to log on as often for the last couple of days, so that is a bit of a delayed response.
Dear maherkaldas,
I am very aware of Albair's efforts, and of his up-to-date approach to all statements he makes. I am also aware of his capability of accessing bishops and members of the Holy Synod, which I greatly appreciate. But in all honesty, that is how I feel: things have been going on without careful thought for a while now when it comes to rites and hymns. I would go by the English saying "when it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why do we change things which people are practising one way. You know what? I won't be exaggerating if I say that Pope Shenouda's suggestion led to more confusion and division, than it has to unity and harmony. It is enough for me to mention that there is a poll on alhan-youthbishopric.com, and you will be surprised to learn that almost 48% of the votes went by the suggestion of annual General Funeral, 49% with the way it was since 1827, and 3% went with the joyful ceremonial. Not only that, but the other statements in Albair's book are based on "new" teachings; why, oh why? If we are not convinced by teachings of old, should we remove them? Or should we strive to understand them, even in a spiritual manner? I am with the latter. I won't stop singing tenen. I won't stop singing agioc ictyn. I think the church teaches us to submit to authorities but not ignorantly. St. James teaches against the increasing number of teachers (yes, I believe I paint myself like one, but forgive me if I am). The bottomline for me is things should remain as they are. Why has our knowledge in hymnology and Coptic language increased over the previous generations, and now we are rectifying the mistakes? When Arius appeared, people stood up against him at that time. When Nestorius appeared, people stood up against him at that time. People didn't need to wait for generations to come to realise that there was something wrong with their teachings. Why do you assume the reverse now? Do I take hymnology and Coptic language to the level of heresy makers? Of course not; but I hold their importance as an integral and fundamental basis of my faith - and yes I do understand what the hymns say, even spiritually, not completely linguistically.
oujai qen `P[C

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maherkaldas

posted on Apr 14, 2010 - 03:49 AM

From ophadeece:<C anecty
I am sorry I haven't been able to log on as often for the last couple of days, so that is a bit of a delayed response.
Dear maherkaldas,
I am very aware of Albair's efforts, and of his up-to-date approach to all statements he makes. I am also aware of his capability of accessing bishops and members of the Holy Synod, which I greatly appreciate. But in all honesty, that is how I feel: things have been going on without careful thought for a while now when it comes to rites and hymns. I would go by the English saying "when it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why do we change things which people are practising one way. You know what? I won't be exaggerating if I say that Pope Shenouda's suggestion led to more confusion and division........

Dear Ophadeece,

I think everyone is mistaken here..

The Pope did not mean what was adopted. The sermon is April 16,2008 It is on the main page of Tasbeha.org..

I Urge everyone to listen to it. and see what the Pope said ... till then i will hold my response.

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abahoor

posted on Apr 14, 2010 - 04:58 AM

I don't see the big problem in believing on this. The rite didn't really CHANGE but rather the TIME of it changed. Albair said it clearly. HGB Raphael explain it clearly to answering someone's question where he does the service in it's original rite (hazayne) around 4 pm in the afternoon.

Joined: Feb 15, 2004 | Posts: 496

ophadeece

posted on Apr 14, 2010 - 05:59 AM

ekhrestos anesty
dear maherkaldas and abahoor,
I guess I understand the pope's point of view. But again timing of the day itself is not that strong an argument in itself. I think we all agreed (by virtue of our predecessors views) to pray some of the major Lordly feasts at times that were not the "orthodox" practice in those days for some reasons and nobody recently objected. You know what I attended churches in the UK who even finished the Liturgies well before midnight. May somebody please give me an answer
oujai

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atthoowi

posted on Apr 14, 2010 - 06:26 PM

I can tell you that 6 centuries ago, based on one manuscript, that our forefathers took human emotion into consideration in addition to ecclesiastical and liturgical attitudes. For example, during the holy 50 days, some funerals they would sing khristos anestee and pimairomi. It makes it seem that Lenten tunes are more semi-annual and rather than using paschal tune, or strictly joyful tune, there was an intermediate state. Furthermore, this seems to be reflected in tradition regarding covenant Thursday and palm sunday, where although these are feasts, upon examining the big picture one can understand their transitionary status and why there are annual tunes incorporated in these services.

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