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can your conscience tell you to do something bad
asinner
posted on Apr 30, 2011 - 12:23 AM
As orthodox Chiristians, we are very reserved from the name "conscience". There is no voice with in us that convicts us like jimminy Criket from Pinnochio. However, we do believe in the Holy spirit which directs us, and yet, within us, there is the internal sinful human nature. So in the first place, there is not conscience. Therefor, what is inside us (being the Holy Spirit) can never tell you to do something bad, as it is God. And that answers your question, no the holy spirit in you cannot cause you to sin. Your human desires however, can do so, and the devil knows how to entice you.
1) No conscience
2) Holy spirit does not guide you to do something bad
3) the internal desire for sin, is the effect of the temptation of the devil mixed with the weak human nature.
In the risen XC
-He that Sins
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-He that sins
A member of the HCOC (The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Choir)
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT
OH YE DRY BONES, HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD! (Ezekiel 37:4)
mikehenry
posted on May 01, 2011 - 05:20 AM
Christ is risen!
I'm not sure we can easily say there is no such thing as a conscience. Perhaps there is no such thing if we understand conscience to be some inner "feeling" of doing right, or something like that. But if we understand conscience as the ability or faculty that enables us to make right choices, informed by our knowledge of Truth (i.e. of God's teaching through Scripture and Tradition of the Church) and our the measure of our being attuned to the Holy Spirit, then I don't think there is a problem with understanding the conscience as something specific.
However, because of our fallen, weak human nature, we are not always attuned to the Holy Spirit, and neither do we have a consistent knowledge of Truth. Thus, for example, I might believe that there is nothing wrong with cannibalism. (Cannibalism is wrong, of course, but not all people believe it. In fact, I think some remote cultures still practice it.) I have a conscience, even though it "tells" me that cannibalism is OK. In that sense, my conscience "told me" to do something which in reality is objectively wrong. Whether I am at fault is another story, though.
From what I understand of the Fathers, it is important to always have a clear conscience (I would add--and please correct me if this is wrong--that it is important to always do what you know to be right even if it in fact wrong). For example, if you know that it is right to go to Church on Sunday for liturgy, but instead decide with full free will to sleep in, you do not have a clear conscience. Or if you know you have to read the Bible every day but skip it out of laziness, you do not have a clear conscience. On the other hand, if you were never taught that you ought to go to Church every week (e.g. if your parents only went every once in a while, or if they never went at all), your conscience might be clear because you don't know any better.
St. Paul talks a lot about this in 1 Corinthians 8. Take a look (I can't explain it now because I have to go).
Here are some quotes to add to the discussion: http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/conscience.html
Mike
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Mi,ayl Henri
tonyhabibi
posted on May 01, 2011 - 11:54 PM
asinner upon further reflection , i think you are wrong ....
If i were to steal a candy bar .... and i happen to get away scott free ..... i have something in my head telling me " man you shouldent have done that ... that was a bad thing ... you should return the candy bar " .......resulting in me having a guilty conscience.
You are telling me this is the holy spirit ....
but for an ahtiest , who has never been baptized .... are you saying it is impossible for him to have this guilty conscience ? because the holy spirit is not in him .....
are you saying it is impossible for the ahtiest to " feel bad " for steal a candy bar , because there is no conscience according to you , there is only holy spirit , and this holy spirit is given upon strict terms of baptism.
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mikokiko
posted on May 02, 2011 - 05:39 AM
Every human is born with an innate objective conscience to tell him what's right and what's wrong, the Holy Spirit on the other hand guides you to do what is right.
St. Paul mentions the conscience several times in his episltes. He talks of sinners and unbelievers who having pure conscience, defile it (shut it up and desensitize it) by doing more wrong. When Jesus spoke the words He who is without sin let him cast the first stone, John tells us that the people were convicted by their conscience. God gives us a rational conscience to know what is right and true, and what is wrong and false. And it is through this God-given faculty by which one uses his senses to believe on Christ and do what's right.
GB
asinner
posted on May 02, 2011 - 05:32 PM
Hey Guys, Please read to the end, in fact if you read nothing else, read my last 2 paragraphs. But try to read the whole thing
Tony, you mentioned that an atheist would have the same feeling of guilt that a Christian would. This Christian calls it the Holy Spirit while the atheist calls it a conscience. Now I don’t think that were arguing semantics here. You said "because the holy spirit is not in him .....”
I agree that the Holy Spirit is not in him, but it is with him. If the Holy Spirit did not work with unbaptized people, NOONE would convert to Christianity because as st. Paul says, “No one can say "Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit works in baptized people and in unbaptized people in order to bring them to repentance. Meaning that the Holy Spirit convicts both the baptized and unbaptized alike. So No, I am not in any way saying it is impossible for an atheist to feel bad. Bad I am saying that it would be wrong to infer that the Holy Spirit only convicts those who have been baptized. Therefore, regardless of what the atheist calls the Holy Spirit, it is still the Holy Spirit convicting him.
In reference to Mike Henry, I understand what you are saying completely, however, it could also be that you’re not having a clear conscience is a result of the internal human desires (to sleep in on Sunday for example) over coming because you decided to “Quench the Spirit.” (1St Thessalonians 5:19). If your parents never taught you to go to church on Sunday, then they (though unwillingly) have helped to quench the spirit. ( I know, harsh but that is they way that I see it is, and that’s why it is important for parents to instil a love of God in their children so that the parents are not judged for quenching the spirit of their child.)
Mikokiko, you said, “God gives us a rational conscience to know what is right and true, and what is wrong and false. And it is through this God-given faculty by which one uses his senses to believe on Christ and do what's right.” I respond saying NO NO NO NO NO NO. You say it is a God given faculty to be able to believe on Christ, and while you are correct in saying this, you are incorrect for labelling this “God given faculty” as a conscience when St. Paul clearly tells us that (like I mentioned above) " No one can say "Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3) By combining your point and the bible, I make my point clearer. YES, THERE IS A GOD GIVEN FACULTY THAT CAUSES GUILT AND LEADS TO REPENTANCE. However this is called the Holy Spirit.
Finally, I could be wrong, this is simply something I heard from a priest (I know, they are prone to mistakes and they could be wrong) but using my understanding (minimal) I am trying to argue this problem. Not to prove anyone wrong or me right but because good things come out of decent arguments.
One thing I request though is that we keep this topic friendly, so that we can have a debate that edifies and not destroys.
_________________
-He that sins
A member of the HCOC (The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Choir)
HCOC-SING IT! LIVE IT! LOVE IT
OH YE DRY BONES, HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD! (Ezekiel 37:4)
tonyhabibi
posted on May 02, 2011 - 05:57 PM
asinner , i like ur answer ,
but i must say that now we are making distinctions on the degrees of activity of the holy spirit before and after baptism ...
it does make sense that the holy spirit leads us to baptism .... but what does baptism do then ? if i already have a part of the Holy spirit .... does this mean .... only at baptism ... i will have the full holy spirit ? .. does the holy spirit come in degrees or parts ? or if i understand it better ... since we are made in the image of god , we have a mysterious slice of the holy spirit in us already .... but when baptized .finally the holy spirit only becomes fully available?
i believe god created us with moral reasoning for every human , regardless of religion .. ,a moral reasoning that is distinct and separate from the holy spirit ....
as for the holy spirit ... its a mystery that pulls you toward the heavenly , and gives u the power of the divine. ( Healing , speaking in tongues ... etc... found in ACTS ) .....
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geomekhaiel
posted on May 02, 2011 - 10:43 PM
Tony! Asinner! Mike!
This is an awesome subject. Good topic-starter man, I'm really loving it! Reading through everyone's responses ignited so many responses in me. I agree with a lot of what is being said but I also disagree to a lot of what is being said. I also have a ton to add. ...Here's my input....
First of all, we need to all agree that each person is created with a conscience. It is an inner voice inside of you which you refine over the course of your life. Your inner voice (aka, 'your conscience') is directed by your own beliefs (good beliefs or evil beliefs). This is why we can have people like suicide bombing terrorists in the world who have a clear conscience. They have a clear conscience because their conscience is lead by their beliefs, which tell them that what they are doing is good. Therefore, the first point that I want to establish is that a conscience can be good or can be evil, but it all depends on the integrity of the beliefs within a person. ...Even St. Paul speaks about "good" and "evil" consciences. At one point St. Paul had a "clear-evil-conscience" when he was persecuting Christianity (Saul). He believed that what he was doing was right, therefore, he had a "clear conscience" but the belief itself was an evil one...which is what I coin the phrase, "clear-evil-conscience."...anyways, I think I proved my point.
Second Point: "A conscience doesn't have to be a spiritual thing!" ...what do I mean? Well, some people have a really hyper-active conscience that is super-led by their beliefs. That's why we have "tree-huggers," "vegans," "humanitarians" and all the other "eco-terrorists". There is nothing spiritual about those types of people and I would hesitate to argue that their choices are led by the Holy Spirit. At the same time, I have to admit that I believe that they have "good" consciences (well, maybe not the eco-terrorists lol).
There is definitely a difference between the Holy Spirit and the conscience. So, the next logical question would be: "What is the Holy Spirit?" ...Allow me to use back-wards logic to explain the answer to that question... If your conscience is "your inner voice" then the Holy Spirit is "Gods voice.". The trick is to make your conscience submissive and in communion with God's Spirit.
Now, the next question is: How do I know if a thought is coming from my conscience of from the Holy Spirit? This is one of the hardest questions to answer, none the less, here goes my crack at it..... I think one needs to identify the characteristics of their own conscience and then identify the characteristics of the Holy Spirit. The problem with doing this is that it is impossible to identify the characteristics of our own consciences because we will have a difficult time with being honest/unbais. However, we can easily identify the characteristics of the Holy Spirit because they have been given to us in Galatians 5 (the fruits of the Holy Spirit). Another important point is to realize that the Holy Spirit never changes but that our consciences can change. The more we grow in the Spirit, the more our thoughts and actions mimic that of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit flows in perfect harmony with the Word of God. Therefore, if you want to know if your thoughts are from the Holy Spirit or your own conscience then you should also compare them to the Word of God. St. Paul instructs us to have "renewing of mind" and the only way to reach this "renewal" is to submerge your mind in the Word of God.
In summery, the human conscience knows the difference between right and wrong based on it's beliefs. The human conscience which is guided by the Holy Spirit knows the difference between right and wrong based on the Word of God and when it realizes that it is wrong it has a yearning for the Savior. This is the difference between someone who has the Holy Spirit and someone who doesn't have the Holy Spirit. The person with the Holy Spirit compares their thoughts/actions to the Word of God and then, in response, seeks after the forgiveness in the Lord. The person with no Holy Spirit, after doing/thinking something bad, has no Savior to turn to for absolution. ..........This isn't something which someone simply does because they are baptized, but this is a way of spiritual life which someone practices constantly by "renewing" their conscience on a regular basis in the light of the Word of God and with the sacraments (ie. confession and communion). In other words, it is not enough to simply be baptized, but you must be living a spiritual life...filled with repentance and "renewal of the Holy Spirit."
I have a lot more I can say on this subject but I will wait until I get a response to this.
Be renewed in the Spirit!
George Mekhaiel
...ps, asinner, I hesitate to say that the Holy Spirit led people to baptism. I prefer to say that the good conscience of man was attracted to the Holy Spirit. It words like a magnet...the Holy Spirit is the positive end and the pre-baptised human soul is like the negative end....attraction occurs!
....also, I would like to echo asinner in saying that I could be wrong and I wrote all of this based on the way I see things. I look forward to correction and growing deeper in understanding from the posts in response to what I have written.
tonyhabibi
posted on May 05, 2011 - 01:57 AM
From geomekhaiel:
Your inner voice (aka, 'your conscience') is directed by your own beliefs (good beliefs or evil beliefs). This is why we can have people like suicide bombing terrorists in the world who have a clear conscience. They have a clear conscience because their conscience is lead by their beliefs, which tell them that what they are doing is good.
Hey Geo , just a quick response from me , i am not authority on the matter , but I still feel that , even if i am an atheist , and do not hold the same moral values of a christian , such as forgiving one another , etc.... i think if an athiest were to strike someone in the face .... there will be a voice telling them , " hey man that was bad , you should feel bad for doing that " ...
i feel there is a compassionate voice inside them that everybody shares ....
the reason i say this , is because , I never heard someone say , my conscience is telling me to not apologize to you .
but also you know , I am now thinking of the Nazi's who killed with absolute disregard to human life without thinking about it twice . maybe consceinces are developed by nature and nurture, but i think deep down , there is a voice of compassion , built in us all from the divine.
its a theory i have based on the biblical verse of us being made in the image of God .
Also , do you think it is indeed the holy spirit that sends us mental voices or in whatever other way it works , a voice in its own unique form , urging us to come to christ. before we are christians ?
Since were talking about the holy spirit , how did the Right hand theif go to heaven , but not be baptized ?
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mikokiko
posted on May 05, 2011 - 05:46 AM
Tony, go read the first book of C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'. You'll probably find the answer there. The bible won't give you a clear answer on this, one can easily read the bible with his own interpretations on this matter.
I generally agree with everything you said though.
GB
geomekhaiel
posted on May 05, 2011 - 06:08 AM
Tony, thank you for your reply! I give you a full response to your post u tomorrow...you said good stuff! ...the reason I can't reply right now is because I am currently online from my phone because my macbook is dead...the only thing that I wanted to say is that I wouldn't recommend u read from cs lewis, rather, I would recommend you read from HH Pope Shenouda...he addressed your question in one of his book...i have the book in my room and I will write the full answer for you tomorrow, God willing....i will quote HH.
...I'm not too amused by cs lewis...I've read many if his books for classes at school and really feel that he is jusy very overrated. I don't mean to downplay his writing, but I simply believe that it is insulting to read from cs lewis when you have much better, wiser, orthodox fathers to refer to. ...HH answered your question directly...ill find the quote.
geomekhaiel
posted on May 05, 2011 - 07:04 PM
Tony!
Read through this: http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-vie ... -8722.html
It also includes a link to what the pope wrote on the subject. I feel like many people make good points in addressing your question.
From tonyhabibi:[Also , do you think it is indeed the holy spirit that sends us mental voices or in whatever other way it works , a voice in its own unique form , urging us to come to christ. before we are christians ?
As far as that is concerned, I wouldn't necessarily say that it is the Holy Spirit that brings us the inner desire (aka. 'mental voice') which yearns for the Lord. I think it has more to do with the part of our fallen nature wanting to be back with the Lord. The yearning comes from a place deep down inside, which all humans share, that desires to be back in union with Him whom we were created in the image of.
...The last paragraph is more my contemplation rather than something that I can prove with the bible or fathers. None the less, if I come across something in my readings then I will post it.
George
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